# Romansh has 5 different varieties (idioms): Sursilvan, Vallader, Surmiran, Puter, Sutsilvan

**URL:** <https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/romansh-has-5-different-varieties-idioms-sursilvan-vallader-surmiran-puter-sutsilvan/48985>\
**Category:** Common Voice\
**Created:** [November 21, 2019, 10:56pm UTC](https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/romansh-has-5-different-varieties-idioms-sursilvan-vallader-surmiran-puter-sutsilvan/48985 "2019-11-21T22:56:44Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 11\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![martinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@martinus](https://discourse.mozilla.org/u/martinus)\
**Post date:** [November 21, 2019, 10:56pm UTC](https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/romansh-has-5-different-varieties-idioms-sursilvan-vallader-surmiran-puter-sutsilvan/48985/1 "2019-11-21T22:56:44Z")

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As part of the project «72 uras» we want to gather as much young people as possible from the 16th to 19th January 2020 which help collecting voice recordings in all five Romansh varieties for Common Voice ([https://72h.ch/de/projektdetail?tx\_seventytwohours\_piprojects[project]=46&tx\_seventytwohours\_piprojects[action]=detail&tx\_seventytwohours\_piprojects[controller]=Project&cHash=97b11bd3b295b13dd18b0b97a3fa8eab](https://72h.ch/de/projektdetail?tx_seventytwohours_piprojects%5Bproject%5D=46&tx_seventytwohours_piprojects%5Baction%5D=detail&tx_seventytwohours_piprojects%5Bcontroller%5D=Project&cHash=97b11bd3b295b13dd18b0b97a3fa8eab)) in collaboration with the youth organization Giuventetgna Rumantscha GiuRu ([https://www.giuru.ch/](https://www.giuru.ch/)) and the romansh umbrella organization Lia Rumantscha ([http://www.liarumantscha.ch/](http://www.liarumantscha.ch/)).

At the moment there are just two varieties available on Pontoon: Sursilvan and Vallader. We have further heard that new languages won’t be accepted for the moment. But having the five varieties available is crucially important for the project. Therefore the question: Can we expect that the missing varieties will be accepted as part of the Common Voice project (soon enough to give us the needed time to translate the interface - let’s say until the 15th of december) or do we have to cancel the project?

I hope that we will be able to realize the project and contribute to Common Voice!

PS: You might wonder why such a small language as Romansh should have five varieties represented in Common Voice, while there is just one for English. Among linguistic arguments there is a practical one: A Romansh person that speaks for instance Vallader won’t be able to pronounce a sentence in Sursilvan.

For further information, see [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romansh\_language](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romansh_language) and especially [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romansh\_language#Sample\_text](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romansh_language#Sample_text)

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**Author:** ![nukeador](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex001/user_avatar/discourse.mozilla.org/nukeador/32/20533_2.png) [@nukeador](https://discourse.mozilla.org/u/nukeador)\
**Post date:** [November 22, 2019, 5:40pm UTC](https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/romansh-has-5-different-varieties-idioms-sursilvan-vallader-surmiran-puter-sutsilvan/48985/2 "2019-11-22T17:40:53Z")

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Hi,

Thanks for posting. We have a legal limitation on age, we can’t collect voices from people under 19 as explained in our site terms of use.

About languages, we are currently finishing our strategy about them, but right now we are considering a text dataset-language a common writing system that contains the same words, grammar and script, acknowledging that non-formal expressions can happen in different territories.

It’s high likely we will finally rely on this standardized list:

[https://www.unicode.org/cldr/charts/latest/supplemental/languages\_and\_scripts.html](https://www.unicode.org/cldr/charts/latest/supplemental/languages_and_scripts.html)

For this case Romansh seems to be considered just one language, but we will be able to capture voice varieties on audio clips once we implement our new accents strategy.

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**Author:** ![nukeador](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex001/user_avatar/discourse.mozilla.org/nukeador/32/20533_2.png) [@nukeador](https://discourse.mozilla.org/u/nukeador)\
**Post date:** [November 22, 2019, 5:44pm UTC](https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/romansh-has-5-different-varieties-idioms-sursilvan-vallader-surmiran-puter-sutsilvan/48985/3 "2019-11-22T17:44:19Z")

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And the languages requirements to be launched and have enough data to train a STT model:

> [@open\_book Readme: How to see my language on Common Voice](https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/readme-how-to-see-my-language-on-common-voice/31530):
>
> triangular_flag_on_post This information is also now available on the [About Pages](https://commonvoice.mozilla.org/about) on Common Voice Website. Please help us to localise this by joining [Pontoon](https://pontoon.mozilla.org/projects/common-voice/)open_book [Mozilla Voice Community Playbook](https://common-voice.github.io/community-playbook/): The source of truth for setting up and maintain self-sustainable communities. Hello everyone, I would like to open this topic to summarize some of the most asked question we are getting: How do I get my language in Common Voice. There are three steps to have your language ready: …

> [@My language is now collecting voice, what do I need to know?](https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/my-language-is-now-collecting-voice-what-do-i-need-to-know/35582):
>
> open_book [Mozilla Voice Community Playbook](https://common-voice.github.io/community-playbook/): The source of truth for setting up and maintain self-sustainable communities. Hi, I want to open this topic because more and more languages are moving to the voice collection phase (thanks to be able to [get the minimum number of sentences](https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/readme-how-to-see-my-language-on-common-voice/31530)!) Now that your language is available for voice collection you might wonder, now what? Keep in mind that in order to properly train Deep Speech algorithm for a general (near-human) recognition model there are …

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**Author:** ![martinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@martinus](https://discourse.mozilla.org/u/martinus)\
**Post date:** [November 23, 2019, 5:45pm UTC](https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/romansh-has-5-different-varieties-idioms-sursilvan-vallader-surmiran-puter-sutsilvan/48985/4 "2019-11-23T17:45:51Z")

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Thank you for your answer. I agree with most of your points, but actually the Romansh idioms do differ in lexicon and grammar. That’s why an average speaker won’t be able to pronounce sentences in other «dialects» (idioms). So, if all varieties would be mixed, a contributor would have to check and skip around 4 sentences until he finds a sentence he can read. That’s not feasible.

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**Author:** ![Conradin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Conradin](https://discourse.mozilla.org/u/Conradin)\
**Post date:** [December 3, 2019, 8:04am UTC](https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/romansh-has-5-different-varieties-idioms-sursilvan-vallader-surmiran-puter-sutsilvan/48985/5 "2019-12-03T08:04:13Z")

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Hi. I’m grateful for the fact, that Romansh sursilvan and soon also Romansh vallader can be part of the Common voice project. This project is for Romansh not only a ‘nice to have’, it’s both a great chance and a big contribution to our effort for language promotion and salvation as well.  
I’d like to reinforce the importance of recording all five written forms of Romansh. In the insolation of the Alps, Romansh developed in five different written forms and in many more various dialects. So if we name for example Romansh sursilvan, it’s a written form of different dialects in the region Surselva. So, even within this part of area, it’s a compromise between ‘Ju ò bétg bugen tè’ and ‘Jau ai buga bugén tai’, which ends in ‘Jeu hai buca bugen tei’, for ‘I don’t like you’. The possibility to be able to record all the five written compromises, one for each region, it’s crucial for the promotion of this minority language of 60’000 speakers. At school, we teach five written forms, in every region its own one. (the canton of Graubünden is right now creating new language books for every single region ([http://www.mediomatix.ch/products/](http://www.mediomatix.ch/products/)). So it’s great to have the Common voice project for the bigger idioms Romansh sursilvan and Romansh vallader, but at least as important for the smaller ones Romansh sutsilvan, Romansh puter and Romansh surmiran.

I refer to your text:

> but right now we are considering a text dataset-language a common writing system that contains the same words, grammar and script, acknowledging that non-formal expressions can happen in different territories.

I completely understand this point of view. But Romansh doesn’t fit in this description. We have different grammar, different ortograph, different ways of saying, and a different formal expression for each of the 5 written forms, and then of course within every of the 5 written forms, we have non-formal expressions as well, as dialects usually have.

I can’t repeat enough, how important this project is for the future of Romansh, in all its written forms. Thank you for reconsidering our enquiry.

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**Author:** ![nukeador](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex001/user_avatar/discourse.mozilla.org/nukeador/32/20533_2.png) [@nukeador](https://discourse.mozilla.org/u/nukeador)\
**Post date:** [December 3, 2019, 12:59pm UTC](https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/romansh-has-5-different-varieties-idioms-sursilvan-vallader-surmiran-puter-sutsilvan/48985/6 "2019-12-03T12:59:40Z")

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Hi,

It seems [our list of languages](https://www.unicode.org/cldr/charts/latest/supplemental/languages_and_scripts.html) and what you are explaining here are in conflict, and we might need to do some additional research.

I would like to clarify the expectations, we currently don’t have any bandwidth to do additional investigation for languages that don’t fit in this list. This might be something we could see if we can find time to check during 2020, but I can’t to make any promises at this point.

Thanks for your understanding.

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**Author:** ![Conradin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Conradin](https://discourse.mozilla.org/u/Conradin)\
**Post date:** [December 3, 2019, 5:15pm UTC](https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/romansh-has-5-different-varieties-idioms-sursilvan-vallader-surmiran-puter-sutsilvan/48985/7 "2019-12-03T17:15:39Z")

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Hi,

I do now understand. Your list obviously contains errors. I’ll ask to correct the information via bug report. Romansh is a national language of Switzerland, and an official language in dealings with persons who speak this language. Furthermore: Persons who speak Romansh may address the federal authorities in its idioms or in Rumantsch Grischun. The authorities answer in Rumantsch Grischun.

[https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classified-compilation/19995395/index.html#a4](https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classified-compilation/19995395/index.html#a4)

The National Languages are German, French, Italian, and Romansh.

##### [**Art. 5** Official languages](https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classified-compilation/20062545/index.html#a5)

The official languages of the Confederation are German, French and Italian. Romansh is an official language in dealings with persons who speak this language.

##### [**Art. 6** Choice of language](https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classified-compilation/20062545/index.html#a6)

What is an idiom in our context:

> **[Idiom (Bündnerromanisch)](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiom_(B%C3%BCndnerromanisch))**
>
> Ein Idiom der im Schweizer Kanton Graubünden gesprochenen bündnerromanischen (rätoromanischen) Sprache ist eine als Schriftsprache genormte Sprachvarietät, die für je eine regional zusammenhängende Gruppe der von Gemeinde zu Gemeinde variierenden gesprochenen Dialekte eine genormte Rechtschreibung darstellt.
> Somit sind hier die Begriffe «Idiom» für eine Schriftsprache und «Dialekt» für die gesprochene Sprache gegenübergestellt. Ausserdem kontrastiert der so verwendete Begriff «Idiom» mit dem Beg...

DeepL translation of the German text:  
An idiom of the Grisons Romansh (Rhaeto-Romanic) language spoken in the Swiss canton of Graubünden is a language variety standardized as a written language, which represents a standardized spelling for each regionally connected group of the spoken dialects varying from municipality to municipality.

Exactly what I said, just in better words. 😉  
I let you know as soon as the errors on the list have been corrected.

Kinds regards

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**Author:** ![Conradin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Conradin](https://discourse.mozilla.org/u/Conradin)\
**Post date:** [February 7, 2020, 11:39am UTC](https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/romansh-has-5-different-varieties-idioms-sursilvan-vallader-surmiran-puter-sutsilvan/48985/8 "2020-02-07T11:39:54Z")

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Hi  
I refer to the list you were linking to. I thought I would need to add the written variations of Romansh to this list, but found, that subtags were already made in 2010.  
[http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-subtag-registry/language-subtag-registry](http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-subtag-registry/language-subtag-registry)  
If you look for Romansh, you’ll find 13 entries, and as written forms, the following 6:

 ![grafik](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex001/uploads/mozilla/original/3X/9/0/90f74ef658de65d941dbdf098e82a3d6306c1367.png)

Here you’ll find some more information to the topic:  
[https://www.iana.org/](https://www.iana.org/)

> **[Language tags in HTML and XML](https://www.w3.org/International/articles/language-tags/)**
>
> How to construct language tag values for such things as HTML lang attributes and XML xml:lang attributes.

> **[IETF language tag](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IETF_language_tag)**
>
> This is an accepted version of this page 
> An IETF BCP 47 language tag is a standardized code that is used to identify human languages on the Internet. The tag structure has been standardized by the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) in Best Current Practice (BCP) 47; the subtags are maintained by the IANA Language Subtag Registry.
> To distinguish language variants for countries, regions, or writing systems (scripts), IETF language tags combine subtags from other standards such as ISO 639, IS...

With this provided information, I kindly ask you to open common voice for:

rumantsch puter  
rumantsch sutsilvan  
rumantsch surmiran

Thanks for your effort.

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**Author:** ![nukeador](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex001/user_avatar/discourse.mozilla.org/nukeador/32/20533_2.png) [@nukeador](https://discourse.mozilla.org/u/nukeador)\
**Post date:** [February 10, 2020, 11:51am UTC](https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/romansh-has-5-different-varieties-idioms-sursilvan-vallader-surmiran-puter-sutsilvan/48985/9 "2020-02-10T11:51:45Z")

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Thanks for the links. As I previously commented, we are relying on [this unicode standard list](https://www.unicode.org/cldr/charts/latest/supplemental/languages_and_scripts.html).

Unfortunately we don’t have the bandwidth right now to change this, we have been working for months on the new [accents and language strategy](https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/feedback-needed-languages-and-accents-strategy/40352) and we won’t be able to advance on this field until that’s resolved and implemented (hopefully mid-end this year).

Note this strategy includes a way to have Romansh as a dataset language and capture the different Romansh sound variations, which will allow us to capture people speaking in all the variations you mentioned.

Thanks for your understanding.

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**Author:** ![Conradin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Conradin](https://discourse.mozilla.org/u/Conradin)\
**Post date:** [February 10, 2020, 12:50pm UTC](https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/romansh-has-5-different-varieties-idioms-sursilvan-vallader-surmiran-puter-sutsilvan/48985/10 "2020-02-10T12:50:28Z")

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Hi. I appreciate your work and effort. So, thanks very much anyway.  
I still disagree, that Romansh fits in your new accents and language strategy, but I’m happy to wait, and there will be enough work for us to do with vallader and sursilvan until then. But I got it: I’ll have to do something about the unicode standard list, otherwise we can’t move forwards on this field.  
My best,  
Conradin

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**Author:** ![Anna\_Bott](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Anna\_Bott](https://discourse.mozilla.org/u/Anna_Bott)\
**Post date:** [August 31, 2020, 7:50am UTC](https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/romansh-has-5-different-varieties-idioms-sursilvan-vallader-surmiran-puter-sutsilvan/48985/11 "2020-08-31T07:50:26Z")

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Hi there, hi @nukeador  
I´m a native Romansh Puter speaker and do contribute so far (2-3 weeks) in Romansh Vallader. Because I didn´t find Rumansh Puter, this is close to it, but really not the same. I need to skip about every 3d sentence, because it would surely not be correct and would worsen the quality of the records or even be completely wrong.  
So, after asking about “ho to add a new language” I landed here.

I would like to bump the topic once again on the top of the list, just to ask:

Is it possible to add Romansh Puter to the project? Is there a plan to add Rumansh Puter in future? How can I help you do so?

I could speake hundreds of sentences and contribute in a very efficient way (I do also have a basic education in professional speaking, time and motivation to contribute for my mother tongue), I could even mobilize a lot of Puter-Speakters to do the same. If necessary, I can also provide you with sentences (also getting you in touch with media/culture people or officials who can provide lots of proved/official sentences in Romansh Puter).

I would like to support @Conradin in his effort to outline the importance and logic of in fact officially 6 Romansh Variations an join his patience to wait for further steps in your project to gather voice - hopefully also in future in my mothertongue Rumansh Puter!

Thanks a lot for your efforts!